A lot of cops don’t want anything to do with bad guys.
Bill Courtney doesn’t feel that way.
A retired NYPD detective with 33 years of law enforcement experience, Courtney cooperated with so-called bad guys in the line of duty. He discovered good guys and bad guys share common ground. For instance, even bad guys love their families.
“They chose a different path because of the obstacles they had in their life, and we chose the path for whatever reason we did,” Courtney said. “When you sit down and talk to them, we’re not a lot different.”
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Courtney is sitting down to talk to former adversaries and colleagues as part of his new gig. Courtney, who relocated to Tulsa, is launching a true crime video podcast. Initial episodes were recorded at the Venue Shrine.
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The first podcast guest was Greg Kading, a former LAPD detective who was the lead investigator on the Biggie Smalls and Tupac Shakur murders. Kading relied on his experiences as a detective to author the book “Murder Rap.”
Another podcast guest was Jason Minter from the entertainment side of the “crime” world. Minter was part of “The Sopranos” team, and, yes, there was real-life intrigue behind the scenes of the acclaimed mob series.
“His background was he was working in a Tower Records video store while he went to the School of Visual Arts to work in film or whatever,” Courtney said.
“He was holding tapes on the side for a guy who worked in the movie industry. And the guy says, ‘Hey, you know what? You’re wasting your time here. I can get you a job as a location scout.’ Jason goes, ‘I don’t have any experience.’ The guy says, ‘Don’t worry. You’ll figure it out.’ And, from there, he becomes a location scout. He gets a job on ‘The Sopranos.’ And, the next thing you know, he’s asked to be David Chase’s personal assistant. So he has all the background stories on the behind-the-scenes stuff in ‘The Sopranos.’”
Ideally, Courtney wants to bring all his podcast guests to Tulsa for face-to-face conversations, but one interview subject couldn’t make it here because he’s wearing an ankle bracelet in another state. Other alleged bad guys are on the way.
The television show “Tulsa King” brought a fictional crime boss to Tulsa. Courtney is inviting real crime figures here.
Courtney cited “Tulsa King” as one of the reasons he came up with the idea to host the true crime podcast. He said it was a bizarre notion that, per the events of “Tulsa King,” La Cosa Nostra would know Tulsa exists or would banish someone to Tulsa. “But I said, ‘You know what? I would love to bring some bad guys to Tulsa.”
Courtney brought himself to Tulsa to reinvent the guy in the mirror. He began to feel like an outsider as a retiree in his native New York. Where should the next chapter of his life take place? Courtney was aware that music artist Danny O’Connor, who lived on both coasts, relocated to Tulsa to become the founder and executive director of the Outsiders House Museum. Hmmm.
“I visited a few times, and I met some of his friends,” Courtney said. “One was a Realtor. She showed me around. I said, ‘You know, let me give it a shot.’”
Courtney gave himself a year to acclimate to new surroundings before getting a job. Three years later, he still doesn’t care to work — unless you count the podcast. He described the people of Tulsa as personable and great and said Tulsa is a cool town, but the search is ongoing for the kind of Italian food he became accustomed to in New York.
Courtney’s “old” job triggered to the new venture. He thought it would be interesting to revisit his career and interview people he encountered as a detective, whether it’s people he arrested or people who cooperated in bringing others to justice.
“I just started reaching out to all these bad guys, and everybody is like, ‘yeah, let’s do it,’” Courtney said.
The Proffer is the name of the podcast. A proffer is an offer made to a person to provide information in exchange for limited immunity or a plea bargaining agreement. Courtney has lots of proffer experience.
At times, the podcast will have an entertainment flavor because Courtney spent the last 10 years of his career investigating organized crime in the music and television industries.
“There will be some interesting stuff coming out (in the podcast) that will be of great interest to people, particularly in the rap world,” he said.
“Who shot who? Who cooperated? Who didn’t? Organized crime was deeply rooted into the industry. There were bad record deals. There are going to be different things like that which are going to be of great interest.”
Courtney remained on good terms with many celebrities who had been victims of various schemes. Maybe a few of them will join him on the podcast. Perhaps actors from “The Sopranos” will jump aboard.
As an enticement to get podcast guests to travel to Tulsa, Courtney is looking for a place to hold complementary events (Q&As, book signings) while guests are in town for podcast interviews at the Venue Shrine.
“It has got a really cool vibe in there with all the rock ‘n’ roll stuff,” Courtney said. “Most of my stuff is music-related over the years, so I kind of dug all the old pictures in the background there and everything else.”
The podcast will be available in January, likely on Patreon and YouTube as a test run, before deciding what’s next, according to Courtney. For information about The Proffer and related events, email events@profferpodcast.com.
Asked why people might like the podcast, Courtney mentioned a redemption theme.
“Certainly for the bad guys, it’s about redemption,” he said. “Looking back on their lives, they they know why they became gangsters. But, in a lot of ways, they survived some really terrible situations. There’s a sense of pride in what they did to to remain alive and successful in that industry, but they have a great amount of regret that if they used that talent properly, they could have been anybody they wanted to be, you know? But it’s going to cover every genre of crime.”
Courtney said the podcast will even explore “heartfelt” stories.
“Everyone loves these true crime series and things like that, but it’s also going to be very personal, very personable, and you’re going to be able to get a good idea of who these people are,” he said.
“The conversations, everything flows really well so far. It’s not so much a Q&A, but an ongoing talk. I know both sides of the story, so it’s very easy for me. People are just going to love it.”
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